Abby Johnson Pt. 2: Trump, Punishing Women, and the Counter-Cultural Pro-Lifer

*This is an AI generated transcript, and may contain errors*

Mark Harrington (00:00):

Today is the second episode with Abby Johnson, who is the former Planned Parenthood director who left the abortion industry in 2009, and today we talked to Abby about her pro-life advocacy. You don’t want to miss this program, so please stick around.

(00:27):

Abby, I do want to get to two more if possible. Two more questions for you. And this is kind of where you’ve kind of changed your thinking. I assume over time, from taking on kind of the status quo mainstream position of the pro-life movement on certain things, and now you’ve kind of changed your ways a little bit. And one of ’em has to do with this question of equal protection, which is the law, at least in America, supposedly we’re supposed to, justice is blind. We’re supposed to protect everybody equally when it comes to abortion. We should protect the unborn as equally as we protect the born and when we pass laws, which now that we’re actually doing this in the post row era in states where we’re criminalizing abortion, what’s been happening is that you have organizations who are saying, we want to exempt women specifically from the legislation written in there that they will not be, I guess criminalized would be the way to put it, or they will not be held accountable for violating, say, the homicide laws for an example in a state.

(01:32):

You’ve come around on a little bit of that, and I understand that’s not what most people believe. I happen to believe that there has to be, women have to be treated equal. The babies need to be treated equally, and there are ways to do this. It’s a hard argument to make. Don’t get me wrong. Most people aren’t going to agree with you right away, but we find out, I’ll just say this on college campuses, when we are asked that question, do you think women should be put in jail? I don’t say yes or I don’t say no. I walk them through, if we believe abortion is murder, which we do, then it seems to me that the punishments for abortion should be divvied out to those who are involved, whether they’re an accomplice, whether they’re a primary person like the abortionist. This is something we have, this conversation we’ve got to have, and it just seems like the pro-life movement just says, no, no, no, no, women are victims. Let’s not go there. If you would just share with me your position and why, if you have changed over time, why is that?

Abby Johnson (02:31):

Yeah, so I’ve completely changed my position on this over the past, I would say two years. And I always knew it wasn’t sitting right in my head because it was completely inconsistent that abortion’s murder, but we’re not going to act like it’s murder in a court of law. And so I knew that was always inconsistent for me, but the pro-life movement said, this is what we believe. This is what you believe, Abby. Right? But I finally was like, yeah, I’m not going to say that anymore. I’m going to say what I actually believe. And surprisingly though, mark, when you start to, like you said, when you start to really explain it to people, people are like, huh, that does actually make sense. They

Mark Harrington (03:19):

Might not agree with you, but they’ll say at least you’re being consistent in your position. At

Abby Johnson (03:22):

Least it’s consistent. And I think you’re absolutely right. We just have not been phrasing it in the right way. I mean, I just tell people, and they’re like, you believe in putting women in prison? I’m like, well, I believe in holding anybody accountable for murdering a human being, an innocent human being. That’s actually my position. So I just believe in due process of the law. So I believe that if a woman was being truly coerced, truly forced into having an abortion by her parent, then the parent should be held accountable. If a man puts a chemical abortion pill into her drink, then he should be held accountable, not the woman. I believe in due process of the law period. I believe anybody who kills an innocent human being in or out of the womb should be held accountable for murder, period. That’s what I believe.

(04:26):

And I think it’s interesting that finally we have the opportunity to hold people accountable for murder. Since Roe has been overturned and the pro-life movement isn’t doing it, we’ve been saying that abortion is murder for the past 50 years. Everybody’s been saying abortion is murder for the past 50 years, and now we actually have the opportunity to act like it. And then you’ve got pro-life leaders now, instead of saying now, instead of saying, oh, abortion is murder, now they’re saying abortion is like suicide. And I’m like, wait a minute. Now we’re completely changing the argument. No abortion’s not like suicide. Abortion is like murder because it is murder. And I just find it really interesting, and I find it interesting that people in the prolife movement are like, well, it’s not compassionate. It’s not a compassionate position. Look, I’ve had two abortions in my life.

(05:16):

The most compassionate thing that somebody could have done for me is to have held a penalty for abortion, because if there would’ve been a possibility of prison time for a woman who has had an abortion, I would’ve never have chosen abortion in the first place. And if I wouldn’t have had that first abortion, I wouldn’t have ever gone to work for Planned Parenthood. And then if I wouldn’t have gone to work for Planned Parenthood, I wouldn’t have had the second abortion. And so that means I would not have killed two of my own children, and I wouldn’t have the lives of 22,000 other women’s children on my conscience for the rest of my life. That’s the most compassionate thing I can of, is to prevent women from carrying the lifelong burden of knowing that they have killed their children. That is compassion. That is the definition of compassion.

Mark Harrington (06:08):

Yeah. Well, you have no disagreement here. I’ve always held to the position that if we make it, we protect the unborn equally, that our law should reflect that. I understand it’s a difficult argument to make in this culture, but we need to be making it and we’re unwilling. Not all women are victims. Some are. We’ve all experienced that by seeing if you go to a planned parent of facility and stand outside it for any period of time, you’re going to see women that are victims and others that aren’t. I mean, some that know exactly what they’re doing. And that’s why historically what we’ve done is we’ve criminalized the abortionist for good reason, and we’ve used the testimony of the women in plea bargaining to actually bring justice to the abortionist. That may happen again and should probably, but because we want to get the abortionist, but now with the abortion pill being 63% of all abortions, we’re eliminating the abortionists from the equation altogether.

(07:09):

You cannot tell me that these women, of course, not all of them don’t know what they’re doing. It’s just to me, that’s just nonsensical. And then we call ’em victims. If I call a woman on a college campus who’s considering abortion a victim, I get just buried. People argue, what are you talking about? Women know they’re strong, they’re able, they’re this, women aren’t victims. They don’t want to be called victims either. They want to be a moral actor that’s in charge of their lives. And I think we’re demeaning them by telling people that they’re victims. I agree. Just don’t think,

Abby Johnson (07:47):

And the pro-life movement has been talking out of both sides of their mouth too. So on one hand you have groups saying, women are the pro-life movement says, oh, women are empowered. They’re so strong, they can do anything. That’s why we start pregnancy resource centers. We want to embolden them, blah, blah, blah. And then the same groups will say, women are victims. Well, it can’t be both. Can’t be both. Either women are strong and they’re empowered and they can do anything, and they can be single moms. They can go to school and have babies and blah, blah, blah. Or they’re victims and they’re puny and they’re weak and they can’t do anything. It’s either one or the other. But it can’t be both. It can’t be both. And that’s the message is that I don’t believe women are victims. I’ve had two abortions. I was not a victim either time.

(08:30):

And so there are a very, very tiny, tiny, tiny, small percentage of women who are truly victims. But the overwhelming majority of women who walk into abortion clinics and have abortions are absolutely not victims, particularly with the internet available. We’re not living in the days of everybody pulling out an Encyclopedia Britannica or having to go to the public library to figure out what an abortion is. Everybody has one of these. Everybody has a cell phone. Everybody can Google informations at their fingertips, particularly young women that are having abortions today. People know they’re pregnant with a baby. People know there’s a living human being in their womb. They know exactly what they’re doing. These women are not victims.

Mark Harrington (09:11):

It reminds me of when we were having the debates of a rape and incest. We didn’t want to talk about, oh, we can’t outlaw abortion in the event of rape and incest. And then we got over that. We made the case, and now that is the position of the majority of the pro-life movement. Our politicians don’t hold to that, but that is our position. It was a hard argument to make, but we made it over time. And I think the same is true now. We need to start making the case. We can make the case. It’s not that difficult. Women are going to be held accountable based on what they call the meeting of the minds that is that how much they know. That’s just like any courtroom. There’s first, second, and third degree murder. There’s manslaughter, there’s different degrees. So that’s the way it should be treated here. We just don’t want to exempt them. And that’s where I’m telling people, don’t exempt women from our laws, allow the court system through the prosecutors and the judges and whatever the juries to come up with their decision, but we shouldn’t exempt them from the laws. I think that’s a mistake.

Abby Johnson (10:13):

Yeah, I completely agree.

Mark Harrington (10:15):

So let’s move on. One last thing if you have time.

Abby Johnson (10:18):

I have time.

Mark Harrington (10:20):

Okay, great. This will air after the debate between Donald Trump and Joe Biden. But I also have been curious because I know that you’re not, I think I should go back. You supported Trump in 2016, and then I believe in 2020, you even spoke at the Republican National Convention. Was it 2020 or 2016? I don’t recall. 2020. 20, okay. The virtual one supposedly, wasn’t it? Yes, that’s right. The virtual one. I think the one in Milwaukee, was it? Yeah, the virtual one. But recently, you’ve been sharing your concerns about Donald Trump and how pro-life people have just been blindly in your, I’m not putting words in your mouth, but just following him and your concerns that that is not helpful, politically speaking, long-term wise as far as our movement where we’re going to. So would you share with me your views on that?

Abby Johnson (11:17):

Yeah, I’m very concerned. I mean, I used to believe that politics was always a binary choice, and I’ve spoken about that before, that it’s always a binary choice, one or the other, one or the other, lesser of two evils. But I really have come to a position, I’ve really been convicted about this, that we have to stop making that choice that we did have good people in the primary. We did have good options in the primary, and we didn’t even make Donald Trump primary. We didn’t even make him come out and argue for why he was a good candidate. And honestly, I mean, I’m not like a fan of Bill Maher, but he’s been the most honest person I think on TV lately because he’s been honestly talking about Donald Trump. He recently said, I think Donald Trump could dye his hair blue and show up in a T-shirt that says trans rights or human rights. And people would agree with him, and I think he’s right. I mean, because Donald Trump is, he is supportive of the LGBT agenda, and conservatives still support him.

(12:34):

He is asking everybody to compromise on abortion rights, and he gets the endorsement of all these pro-life groups, and he is out there saying, he supports abortion. He’s out there calling Harvey Bills disgusting. It’s crazy to me. He’s supporting all of these Arizona banned abortion. He said That was terrible and needed to overturn that. How can that be the pro-life candidate for our movement? It’s insane to me. But we keep going with the evil. We keep going with the lesser of two evils, and we keep compromising and we see where compromise has gotten us. It has gotten us a morally unfit candidate. And everybody’s like, oh, well, I’m not trying to get a pastor in the White House. I’m like, well, maybe we need one. Maybe that’s the problem is that we have left God out of the equation for so long. This is where we are now. And now I just saw an article come out that the Republican party is trying to take the pro-life plank out of the platform. And I’m like, well, of course

Mark Harrington (13:50):

They are. That’s not the first time, by the way. No, it’s not. I’ve been around long enough to know that that’s not the first time they threatened it. And I’m like, well, of. But I think you’re right that there’s probably a bigger threat of it this time around than ever before. But look at, I’ve seen this show before.

Abby Johnson (14:04):

Yeah. I mean, look at the leader. He doesn’t believe that we need to be, and he’s blaming pro-lifers for losses. I mean, it’s not because they keep running terrible candidates and they keep compromising. I mean, what moderates are actually winning right now. Moderates aren’t winning. It’s people on the extremes that are winning. It’s really conservative. People that are winning, or really liberal people that are winning, people that are moderates like Dr. Oz, they’re not winning. It’s not the moderates that are winning. You can’t show me any moderates that are winning. People either want really conservative candidates or they want really liberal candidates, and now’s not the time to just be compromising

Mark Harrington (14:49):

All the time. So let me ask you this, because I’ll cut right to the chase right now. He will be the nominee more than likely, even if he’s in jail. And Joe Biden more than likely is going to be the candidate for the Democrats. What alternative are you suggesting? That we sit this out this time? There’s not a third party option. And in the past there had been, I’ve only bucked the Republicans once or twice in my lifetime and voted for a third party candidate, but I don’t see one. You’re not going to vote for Robert Kennedy Jr. I assume. So what is the option this time around?

Abby Johnson (15:25):

Okay, so right now I am waiting to see who Donald Trump’s Vice Vice presidential pick is going to be. That is going to determine whether I vote for him or not. Gotcha. If he picks someone who is abhorrent on the issue of abortion as he is, then I will write in someone because I do think we have a duty to vote. I do think that we cannot sit out elections, but I do think our congressional elections right now are even more important than the presidential election. So I will absolutely vote in all of the other races, but I will not. I will.

Mark Harrington (16:07):

So if he picks a strong pro-life and actually on a short list, I’m not sure who those would be, but I dunno, either in the ones that are in the discussion, that would maybe be enough. And why? Is it because they might be the successor if he were to win, he would be the heir apparent to the White House, right? In the Republican side,

Abby Johnson (16:28):

Yes. Gotcha. Because I don’t think if we’re honest Trump’s about the same age as Joe Biden. So everybody keeps going on about like, oh, Joe Biden’s so old. Well, Donald Trump is so old, and so we may be looking at a vice president that ends up becoming the president

Mark Harrington (16:50):

With either one of them. Yeah,

Abby Johnson (16:51):

That’s true. With either one of them. So I think the vice presidential pick in this race is incredibly important.

Mark Harrington (16:57):

Yeah, I agree. This is probably the most consequential vice president pick that I’ve seen any president or nominee ever have to make.

Abby Johnson (17:03):

Yes.

Mark Harrington (17:05):

Because the fact that we know it’s only one term too. Yeah.

Abby Johnson (17:07):

So I’ve heard Sarah Huckabee could be on the list. She would be a good, I would support her. I like her very much, and I believe in her pro-life position. I believe she’s very sincere, but a lot of the ones that he is put on his shortlist, I’m like, what are we thinking here? But yeah, I mean, this is how I feel, mark. I feel like at this point I would rather lose than continuing to put moderate after moderate after moderate in an

Mark Harrington (17:47):

Office. Well, listen, I’ve been in that place. I’ve told people I’m going to vote for Trump, but I have my own views on this, and I’ve been in that place before, and I respect people’s conscience on this. I think it’s one of those decisions that they have to make. I don’t disparage people one way or the other. They vote for Trump or not. I’ll make my case as to why I, it’s probably worthwhile doing it. I did see he spoke to the, what was it? Faith and Freedom, of course, it’s a very Christian based organization where he laid out all his accomplishments on pro-life. But he has, as we all know, he has shied the responsibility of the federal government to do anything on this. And we know that that’s not appropriate. We know the federal government does have a place, and he’s just basically said the states can have it, and it seems like he doesn’t really care how it works out.

(18:40):

Said, oh, put it up for a vote. I opposed that. I don’t think the states should have a role, but obviously the federal government does too. And he won’t even weigh in on a 15 week ban, which to me, I’m not sure whether that’s even useful to be honest with you. But he won’t do that because he sees it as a loser politically. This is not a core issue for him. It’s not one of those issues. I think Ron DeSantis for an example, is more pro-life, the guy, it’s part of his being where Donald Trumpet never was. He was a pragmatist and he got three justices on the Supreme Court, got a wonderful thing, but I don’t think it’s because he was pro-life. So that’s what we’re dealing with. And I tell friends that

Abby Johnson (19:21):

Even two of those justices have been incredibly disappointing on other issues

Mark Harrington (19:25):

Lately. Absolutely have.

Abby Johnson (19:26):

So it’s like

Mark Harrington (19:27):

They got Roe right, though. They got thes, right? They

Abby Johnson (19:29):

Got Roe, right. But it’s like they’re failing us on the border. They’re failing us on immigration. They’re failing us on other issues. It’s like, are you really conservative? I’m not really sure. I feel like we kind have a John Roberts situation going on with Kavanaugh and Coney Barrett.

Mark Harrington (19:46):

It could be. And I think we are heading towards, unfortunately, and this is, I’ve been warning people, we’re basically going to have two pro-choice parties before long unless we do something about this and then we are running out of time. And if Donald Trump gets in or loses, this has got to get fixed. If we don’t have a party, we don’t have political power. I mean, you’ve got to have a party that you can promote your positions with, whether that is the Republican party or some other party that might arise out of it. I’ve never been a big third party person, but the time may come. I mean, the time may come where I just can’t do it anymore. And maybe you’re there. It sounds like,

Abby Johnson (20:31):

You know what, I’m ready for Mark. I’m ready for Trump to be done. That’s what I’m ready for. I’m ready for the time to come where Trump is just done and can. He went in. The reason I really liked Trump in the beginning, he went in as just a regular guy. He went in as a businessman. He went in as somebody who was not a politician. When he came out, he came out a politician, and he’s running now as a politician. And that’s what I hate right now. If he was back to that guy that he was running in 20 16, 20 20, I would be wholeheartedly stumping for Trump. But he’s running 100% as a politician and asking everybody to compromise on every issue. Plus I’m super pro Second Amendment, and he was the guy that banned bump stocks and he’s whittling away at our Second Amendment rights, and I’m not super for that either. So there’s a lot of issues like the LGBT stuff, the Second Amendment stuff, the pro-life stuff, which is of course number one on my list. He’s just not the conservative candidate for me, but I am looking forward

Mark Harrington (21:43):

To the vice president

Abby Johnson (21:44):

The next election. I’m looking forward to the next presidential election unless Jesus comes back, which I’m open to that too.

Mark Harrington (21:50):

Well, and he has said that he’s going to be announcing soon, so it’s not before the debate because that’s coming up, but he will be announcing and that will be, I think, like I say, the most consequential VP pick that I think a nominee for Republican party president has ever made. I agree. But I appreciate your positions here. Abby Johnson has been my guest today. You can go to abby j.com and you also want to make sure that we check out the new documentary, which is unthinkable. And you can go to Unthinkable doc. That’s do c.com and set up a screening of the movie. The movie is not available currently publicly, but it will be in the theaters, and eventually it’ll be available streaming online as well. Also, you can go to abortion worker.com, find out more about how Abby has worked tirelessly over the years to bring out abortion workers from the abortion industry. Abby, thanks for taking all the time today. We appreciate it. Love to have you back on as this continues with the election and other things. We appreciate all that you’ve done and continue your voice as someone who has a unique perspective on everything that has to do with the abortion battle. So appreciate you being on the show.

Abby Johnson (23:11):

Thank you. Appreciate you, mark.

Mark Harrington (23:14):

Well, friends, I hope you enjoyed Abby Johnson there in the two-part series that we had with her, talking about her experience in the abortion industry, her views of abortion, victim photography, and whether they work or not, whether it’s at a clinic or at a public university or on the streets, and also her views on politics and how she’s changed over the years, and really just coming up with her own views and not just following what the mainstream of the pro-life movement takes a position on. So I hope you enjoyed that. And to find out more about Abby’s work, you can go to abby j.com. That’s abby j.com. Also, don’t forget, the unthinkable documentary is soon to be released into theaters, but you can be part of a screening if you wish, by going to unthinkable.com. Unthinkable doc. That’s unthinkable. D c.com, and you can sign up to be one of those people to have a screening, a private viewing, if you will, of this new documentary that Abby’s put together, talking about all these and just witnesses, people that have left the abortion industry being interviewed, this show, sorry. You’re going to have to fix that.

(24:39):

So again, unthinkable.com is where you can sign up for the screenings of her new documentary, and you go to abby j.com to find out more. We’ll see you next time. God bless you. God bless America, and remember America to bless God.

Outro (24:58):

You’ve been listening to Mark Harrington, your radio activist. For more information on how to make a difference for the cause of life, liberty and justice, go to created equal.org.org. To follow mark, go to Mark Harrington show.com. Be sure to tune in next time for your marching orders in the Culture War.